Qui Locutus - a Catholic Apologetics Blog - Defending the Catholic Faith and keeping Catholics Catholic!
Just a reminder! Christmastide BEGAN on Christmas Day in celebration of the Christ Mass and continues even after Epiphany through February 2nd - Candlemas Day!
There's no such thing, nor was there ever, as a "Christ Mass".The Mass is flatly unbiblical and I will debate anyone on this forum who thinks otherwise.
Hello, Challenge accepted. "There is no such thing, nor was there ever, as a 'Christ Mass.'" And: "The Mass is flatly unbiblical" are the statements you are defending. Please present your opening argument - or was that it? Would you like to propose rules to abide by? I'm game, as long was we stick to the topic and avoid the ad hominem approach (which pretty much invalidates arguments anyway). Cordially,Scott (CathApol) Windsor<<<
Well, Eucharist Angel, since you put yourself in the position of having to prove a negative, I decided to save you some grief - and I would go first. Was the feast of the Christ Mass always celebrated on December 25th? Quite frankly, no! Many have theorized that the Catholic Church in the fourth century decided to put the date of Christ's birth at the same time the pagans were already celebrating the birth of Mythra, a Roman holiday and for some Romans, the most sacred of the year. However, the reality of selecting December 25th had more to do with Easter than Mythra. In ancient times it was thought that one died on the anniversary of their conception. It was also theorized that Jesus died on March 25th, which is the Feast of the Annunciation which has been celebrated since the fifth century (BBC, 2009). So, nine months after the Annunciation puts us at December 25th. This was a guiding principle for deciding on the date of celebrating the birth of Jesus and Pope Julius I selected December 25th. The Mass celebrated that day was originally referred to as "the Feast of the Nativity," and later became known as "the Christ Mass" or "Christmas."Also, at least as early as the second century, the Feast of the Conception of John the Baptist was celebrated on September 9th. Scripture states that the Annunciation took place in the sixth month of Elizabeth's (John the Baptist's mother) pregnancy. Go six months out from September and you have March. (Windsor, 2016). It would take a while before the Feast of Christmas spread throughout the Church. According to History.com, it spread to Egypt by 432 AD and to England by the late sixth century. So, the Christ Mass was already being celebrated on December 25th long before it reached the area of Norse influence - who also celebrated the Yule that time of year - however many Yule traditions made there way into Christian celebrations.ReferencesBBC, (2009). The Feast of the Annunciation. BBC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/holydays/annunciation.shtml Windsor, S. (2016). Christmas a converted pagan holiday? [blog] Qui Locutus. http://quilocutus.blogspot.com/2016/12/christmas-converted-pagan-holiday.html Other Readingshttps://blogs.oracle.com/jrose/the-date-of-christmas-comes-more-from-easter-than-the-winter-solstice
Well, so much for the "debate" challenged by EA. I have totally thwarted his statement that "there's no such thing, nor was there ever, as a "Christ Mass"." Clearly there is and has been a Christ Mass celebrated AT LEAST since the 4th century (keeping history in mind, there were no huge public celebrations of Mass prior to the 4th century due to Roman persecution of the Catholic Church - which is the ONLY Christian religion that has been around since the time of the Apostles*). So, on that account EA has clearly lost this "debate" (I put "debate" in quotes because we can hardly call it a debate if EA has avoided engaging in the exchange).Now, with that said, it is my belief that EA was more intent upon stating "the Mass is flatly unbiblical." I deliberately left that one hanging out there for EA to engage - and nothing - so I will address that now too.To be "unbiblical" would be to say there is no foundation for the Mass in Scripture. Allow me to briefly answer the way I answered Jacob Prasch, "Jesus Himself commanded that we "do this" every time we partake in the Eucharist (1 Cor. 11:25 and Luke 22:19). To not use the ceremony (the Mass) which He Himself instituted would be contrary to His command" (Windsor, 2015). Clearly Jesus' command to "do this" is biblical and that which He command we "do" is THE central part of the Mass - so the Mass IS biblical.I fully expect Eucharist Angel (an ironic choice of nickname, being the term "Eucharist" is very "Catholic") to not engage this debate because he/she has already lost.Cordially,Scott Windsor<<<ReferencesWindsor, S. (2015). Questions for Catholics - Part 7 - The Mass and call no man father [blog]. Qui Locutus. http://quilocutus.blogspot.com/2015/11/questions-for-catholics-part-7-mass.html*Orthodoxy has been around since day 1 as well, and the two were united for the first 1000 years of Christendom as "One, Holy, Catholic, and Orthodox Church" (the Four Marks).
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