In a recent post from Alan/Rhology on Beggars All, he said:
>> sw: So you're confirming (again) that your local
>> church is acting like a "little magisterium" again.
>
> AR: Well, I'd agree that in this case it was a little
> magisterium,
sw: Thank you.
> AR: except my church actually practices biblical excommunication.
> When was the last time yours did?
sw: All the time. Some excommunications are automatic, like if one
participates in or assists in procuring an abortion, the excommunication
is automatic.
> AR: And of course, I'm not claiming Rome is totally wrong in
> EVERYthing, so in this case my church and yours coincide.
sw: So you twice concede that your church acts as it's own
"little magisterium" and then next you say...
> AR: (That) Doesn't make my church a little magisterium.
sw: Wait! You just said TWICE that it DID!
>> sw: So, in YOUR concept of "church" it happens at YOUR
>> church, but not in other churches, like MY church. I see.
>> How consistent is that?
>
> AR: This makes no sense. It happens in mine. It happens
> rarely if ever in yours. How is that a question of consistency
> on my part?
sw: Well, 1) "I'd agree that in this case it was a little magisterium."
Then 2) "...so in this case my church and yours coincide."
Then 3) "(That) doesn't make my church a little magisterium.
Then 4) "It happens in mine... rarely if ever in yours..." (but you
concede it does happen, even if you don't realize how often).
You're bouncing all over this one! Perhaps you want to take
back some of what you said so that you can be consistent?
>> sw: The authority was clearly given to the Apostles in
>> Matthew 18, and that authority lies with their successors.
>
> AR: Where does Matt 18 say that about their successors?
sw: This has been documented many, many times, but I will
do so again. First off, NO passage from Scripture is to be
read in a vacuum from the REST of Scripture! Matthew 18
does not mention succession, however succession IS part of
Scripture - and undeniably so.
sw: To begin with, Jesus said: "18"As (A)You sent Me into
the world, (B)I also have sent them into the world."
John 17:18. So, as the Father sent Jesus, He sent His
Apostles. Jesus selected bishops - and thus, so should
they and so DID they.
sw: In Acts 1:20-23 we see the successor to Judas' bishoprick
selected. Some non-Catholics try to say, "but Judas' successor
had to be a witness to the ministry of Jesus," and they cite
verse 21 as their prooftext, which is fine and good. For THIS
successor they wanted one with those qualifications, but
Matthias is NOT the only other one called an Apostle in the
New Testament! St. Paul was not with them throughout Jesus'
ministry, in fact he persecuted the early Catholics! Barnabas
is also called an Apostle (Acts 14:14) as well as Apollos being
included in "us apostles" (1 Cor. 4:6-9) and within that same
context St. Paul "sends out" (literal meaning of "apostle") St.
Timothy in the same way he himself was sent out to teach
(see verse 17). Therefore this imagined condition being put
upon all who would be called "apostle" or "bishop" is simply
ludicrous.
sw: In short, apostolic succession is not an invention of the
Catholic Church, it is quite scripturally sound and scripturally
based. So again we must urge those reading this whose
"teachers" or "leaders" or "elders" are not in valid succession
to the Apostles - flee from them!
In another thread on the same blog, Edward said:
> Ed: Their (Catholics) argument is based on the authority
> of the Majesterium, it becomes an existential problem as
> to whether or not they even have the right authority
> without severely begging the question. Unless they can
> find some irrefutable epistemological formula to prove
> the pope et al. are the true church, they are left with
> that bugaboo, "private interpretation" to determine which
> authority to follow. Thus they are no better than the
> prots, despite the protestations of the RCs.
sw: We see the old, "they're no better than us" argument, as
if that were a valid argument. It's not! If we're both wrong
about this - then we both go to hell! The fact of the matter
though is based in the Scriptures I quoted to Alan above.
There truly IS valid apostolic succession in THE Church which
Jesus Christ built. Outside of communion with that succession
you are following impostors who are there to "fool, even the
elect" and/or have been fooled themselves into believing they
are on the right path. However, if apostolic succession is
real, and I believe I've made a pretty good foundational case
for that, then we must reject any who are not part of that
succession and/or in communion with that succession. These
other teachers/elders are preaching a "different gospel" and
should be avoided at all cost. Even if it means going against
family and friends - you must follow the Truth.
> Ed continues: Also, once they start arguing over history,
> what the Scriptures or the Fathers say about the pope,
> they are behaving just like those "chaotic" prots who
> supposedly lean on their own understanding. They are, in
> so borrow a phrase, starting with orthodoxy and
> establishing authority. If their interlocutor is a prot, they
> just keep waving the authority card in his face because
> they can say their church is the real deal (which I do not
> believe, of course) because it is "older", but when the
> opponent is EO (Eastern Orthodox), their situation is
> different because they make similar claims based on
> similar arguments, but the EOs have a different outcome.
>
> Just watch a discussion between an EO and RC about
> e.g. papal infallibility or divine simplicity vs. essence/energies,
> and you will see that when they cannot just wave the
> authority card to stop discussion, they have a hard slog
> justifying their beliefs on purely rational grounds.
sw: Well, for one thing when the discussion is with someone
from Eastern Orthodoxy, yes - the discussion IS different
because they too have valid apostolic succession. What
they lack is communion with the See of Peter. You are
not from Eastern Orthodoxy, so I'll save that discussion
for one who is (and I am in a paused debate at the time
of this writing with someone from Orthodoxy). The point
is, what we may say to Orthodoxy is different from what
we'd say to Protestants - that's a given - but the position
of Protestantism is EVEN LESS than that of Orthodoxy, so this line of argument does not help Edward's cause. I am
also in a private discussion currently with a friend of mine
who is seriously considering the move to Orthodoxy, I
only bring this up to let you know, I am quite familiar with
dealing with discussions and apologetics with Orthodoxy.
I may share some of those discussions on my blog after
making anonymous my friend's name, or at least my
responses to him. But back to the point, you're not of
the Orthodox persuasion, so to throw that into the mix
at this point is nothing short of a distraction tactic. As
I deal with you, I will be dealing with a Protestant and
will draw upon my own experiences and insights from
when I too was a Protestant. THIS discussion is about
authority and distinguishing the differences between
Catholic and Protestant authority - let's stick to that,
shall we? That being said, you appear to be conceding
the Catholic position to a point when you say we wave
the authority card because we're older. That argument
does indeed have merit, but it is not our only argument.
> Ed continues: I think this is usually a problem with
> arguments from authority--unless everyone accepts
> the authority they are pretty useless. Hence the
> constant skirmishing with RCs stating that prots are
> bound by "private interpretation" while they are only
> following a God-ordained authority. Well, what if it
> isn;t a God-ordained authority, and what if there are
> other choices we can base om the same criteria?
sw: Well, therein lies your burden of proof! Prove to us that God didn't ordain the first Catholic bishops and then they, through the Holy Ghost, ordained the succession of bishops throughout history to this day. There are other points for me to raise, but for now this one should suffice.
>> Ed concludes: If they were consistent, they would say
>> that there is chaos among those who claim an infallible
>> authority.
sw: First off, don't you claim to cling to an infallible authority?
sw: Second, the "you're as bad as we are" argument is not a valid one.
"EA" wrote:
> Lay Catholics (as well as others) are divided over
> issues like abortion, where is the INFALLIBLE teaching
> on that? There are encyclicals and various other
> writings from individual theologians which are not
> infallible, but there is no ex cathedra teaching on it,
> yet there is controversy on an issue of faith and morals.
sw: Let me just say, there's not an infallible ruling on absolutely every matter of faith and morals. As legalistic as the Catholic Church can be at times, to make such a ruling on absolutely everything which touches upon faith and morals would become so cumbersome and overwhelming. No, such rulings come about when the Church deems it is absolutely necessary. If there are ordinances in place which already cover the ground, then there the need for an infallible ruling is diminished.
sw: In the specific case of abortion, mentioned above, Canon Law is quite clear and specific on the matter, Can. 1398 "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication." By "latae sententiae" that means it is automatic. There is no "debate" on this! If you procure (or even particiapate in) an abortion, you are excommunicated and must be reconciled to the God through the means provided by Him in His Church - there's no way around this! Sure one MAY argue, but Canon Law remains in force and once a person has procured an abortion, they are not in communion with the Church and sin even greater if they ignore this fact and continue on without proper reconciliation, as if this great chasm of faith has not occurred in their life.
In JMJ,
Scott<<<
