Often in the apologetics world, at least that of Catholic apologetics, we hear the retort as "mo" makes above after the Catholic makes the claim that "Jesus said, 'this IS my body...' and we believe it!" Well, is Jesus a door made of wood and hinges? Well, He's not made of wood and hinges - but He most certainly is a door! It is ONLY through HIM that we can enter into Heaven! So yes, Jesus IS a door - but that "door" is hidden under the appearance of the Man, Jesus Christ just as the Eucharist REALLY IS HIM, but hidden under the appearance of bread and wine.
I hope this helps "mo" understand the concept better AND to understand that this IS the great MYSTERIUM FIDEI, the "Mystery of Faith" which we proclaim at every Mass. The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ and it is those who LACK FAITH who do not believe Him.
"For one who has faith, no explanation is necessary; for one who lacks faith - no explanation will do."
"mo" continues:
Next you say that worshipping the Eucharist is a recognition of His "Real Presence". In your view maybe, but I trust you already know that all non-Catholics on earth utterly reject such a notion, and for solidly good reasons, not the least of which was that Jesus said His physical presence was "going away" (I would imagine no less than 10 times), promising to send the Comforter in the absense of His physical body. This is also confirmed by Paul where we read that, "Though we have known Christ after the flesh, now henceforth know we Him NO MORE" (2 Cor 5:16).
Well, first off, not all non-Catholics reject the Real Presence! Most notable are the Eastern Orthodox, the Anglicans, and even, quite close to the Catholic understanding, the Lutherans. If you put all the Christians together who accept the Real Presence and compare that with those who do not, I'm sure you will find that those who reject the Real Presence are quite in the minority. Now, that does not give you license to say, "the path to Heaven is the narrow one..." as if those who believe in the Real Presence are on the wider path - because in the overall picture Christianity is a minority religion on this planet. You don't get to claim to be on that narrower path merely because you reject a belief/article of faith common to the majority of Christendom.
"mo" continues:
I understand that you consider it idolatry because you do not have the faith necessary to accept the Word of God on this matter. BUT, for those of us who DO accept His Word on this - we DO accept that the Eucharist IS His body and blood and to give it any LESS worship would be disrespectful, if not blasphemous.As for "worshipping" the Eucharist, I must classify this as pure idolatry. Your catechism states, "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign. . .of God's action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the WORSHIP men offer" (# 1325, #1380}. Not only does this clash with "worshipping God in spirit and in truth" (Jn 4:23) by supposing He means worship through a material object, but also the catechism's shocking claim of SANCTIFICATION through worshipping the Eucharist! This directly contradicts the Bible which says that we are sanctified by the operation of the Holy Spirit who dwells within {1 Cor 6:11} .
"mo" continues:
Sanctification is a lifelong process wherein we are "conformed to the image of His Son" {Romans 8:29}
And I agree with you here! (I'm not afraid to agree with you when you get something right). YES! Sanctification IS a lifelong process!
"mo" continues:
and Jesus prayed that we would be "sanctified through thy truth; thy WORD is truth " {Jn 17:17}. That being so, the process of advancing along on the road of holiness can only come about through "eating" the Word of God (and not the Eucharist!) because, "How sweet are thy words unto my taste; yes, sweeter than honey to my mouth ......and "How then shall a young man cleanse his way? [sanctification]. By taking heed according to thy word" {Ps 119:9/103}.So, if you are truly "eating" the Word of God, then you are "accepting" Him AT HIS WORD! The bread is no longer merely bread - it IS His body! The wine is no longer merely wine, though it may appear so, it IS His blood! Likewise, Jesus IS not just "a" door - He is THE Door by which we can enter into Heaven.
In JMJ,
Scott<<<
PS- I put "mo" in quotes because I don't know who "mo" is and the profile for "mo" is hidden. If "mo" will give me his/her real name, I will give respect to him/her and use that name.
CathApol: is Jesus a door made of wood and hinges? Well, He's not made of wood and hinges - but He most certainly is a door! It is ONLY through HIM that we can enter into Heaven!
ReplyDeleteMonty: Typical Catholic piety denies your assertion that Jesus is the only door to heaven because one must first walk over the DOORMAT of Mary first. Googling, "To Jesus through Mary" in my browser, exposed an unimaginable number of articles that determine to convince us of the virtues of wiping our feet, as it were, over that doormat before entry. One article from the EWTN library states that the aforementioned infamous catch-phrase is only one of a "treasure chest" of literature by "devotional writers and preachers" which agree that Eucharistic meditations on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary (as published by Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration Society) should be prayed before the wafer/Host. Cardinal Roger Mahony, Archbishop of Los Angeles, provided the foreword to this booklet. He wrote: "By linking our prayer through Mary to our adoration of Jesus in the most Blessed Sacrament, we have been given a new and spiritually rich avenue to Christ THROUGH His mother".
I must put down my...."immaculate foot".....and dismiss your claim that you believe Jesus is the Door, when in your heart (if you are like the typical RC), think that the "red-carpet of mariology" must be rolled out before the door is even opened.
C.A: The Eucharist IS Jesus Christ and it is those who LACK FAITH who do not believe Him.
M: The Eucharist is NOT J.C. and it is only those who fall into the same trap of misunderstanding Him as those in John 6 did, who are deceived. Jesus knew very well when those words past His lips, He would SPLIT Christianity basically in two, knowing full well that one group of people were destined to misunderstand Him till Kingdom Come. And so it was. And so it is--- that we believe that the preponderance of evidence militates against a literalistic understanding, while the most evidence the Catholic can furnish is merely to assert it to be so and back it up by over-zealous Catholics who report on bleeding, weeping, speaking, levitating and decomposing wafers.
C.A: not all non-Catholics reject the Real Presence!
M: It is irrelevant. Jesus said His physical presence was going away 10 times and the issue is settled, regardless of how many people believe otherwise.
C.A: I understand that you consider it idolatry because you do not have the faith necessary to accept the Word of God on this matter.
M: And I understand that you only think that way because, "you do greatly err, not understanding the Scriptures or the power of God" (Matthew 22:29).
C.A: So, if you are truly "eating" the Word of God, then you are "accepting" Him AT HIS WORD!
M: All Christians believe the words of Christ. Understanding them properly is a gift that must be granted (Luke 24:45). It must be you that is the one who is deceived because Jesus most certainly did not expect everyone to take Him strictly at "His word" when He said to hate your parents, or to cut off your hand, or pluck out your eye if they cause you to sin. We are to, "study to show ourselves approved" (2 Tim 2:15) and to gather the evidence to see the big picture. And the big picture shows the RC Eucharist to be a sham, I must be blunt.
"I am the bread of life. He who COMES to me shall not hunger and he who BELIEVES in me shall never thirst".
How then are we fed by Christ?
By GOING to Him.
How do we drink and eat His flesh?
By BELIEVING in Him.
To eat one's flesh, to drink one's blood, to eat justice, to eat a book, to eat words, were all familiar ways of speaking among the Jews and THIS is the proper way of understanding the "cannibalistic" words of Christ (Jer 15:16, Ezek 3:1, Job 31:31, Matt 5:6; 29-30, Rev 10:9; 16:6).
Hello Monty, and thank you for using a fuller name. I will answer your comments in parts as to not lose focus.
ReplyDelete1) Let's not try to use "typical" or "stereotypical" comments, if we can avoid them. Such are polemical and rarely fruitful.
2) You seem rather offended by "to Jesus through Mary" - which is wholly another topic and I will address that in a separate blog article.
3) You're putting down your "immaculate foot" over a non-issue to this discussion. Jesus IS the Door to Heaven, NO ONE enters Heaven except THROUGH HIM! Again, I'll be addressing your objection to "to Jesus through Mary" in a separate article.
4) It seems to me, just expressing my personal opinion here, that you cannot accept that a Catholic believes that Jesus REALLY IS A DOOR. Remember, THAT is the matter we're discussing in this article which you are attempting to divert to a discussion on Mary. THE POINT is that Jesus REALLY IS A DOOR just as the Eucharist REALLY IS HIS BODY AND BLOOD! You seem to be avoiding that point.
More on your other points later...
In JMJ,
Scott<<<
I have tried repeatedly to send my response, but this message always pops up...
ReplyDelete"Your HTML cannot be accepted: Must be at most 4,096 characters."
If this goes through, it's taking messages that are less than 4,000, so I don't know what's going on.
I'll try again tomorrow.
Monty,
ReplyDeleteCopy/paste your comment to Notepad then copy pieces of it at a time to smaller comments. It may take you two or three comment entries to get one large thought out.
Scott<<<
(I'll try putting my response in 2 parts and see if that'll work).
ReplyDeleteScott: Let's not try to use "typical" or "stereotypical" comments, if we can avoid them. Such are polemical and rarely fruitful.
Monty: If the "typical" refutation of Catholic doctrine is squarely based on the sacred Text, I am not ashamed to use it, and that you choose to label it "stereotypical" will not diminish the force of its impact.
S: You seem rather offended by "to Jesus through Mary" - which is wholly another topic and I will address that in a separate blog article.
M: I hardly think that since the majority of Catholics think it necessary to go THROUGH Mary to get TO Jesus, is somehow "another" topic. For you perhaps it becomes "another" issue, but that's because it so flagrantly violates the Scriptures--and you are caught between a rock and hard place by trying to conform the Bible with out-of-control RC piety. I would certainly hate to be in your position.
S: You're putting down your "immaculate foot" over a non-issue to this discussion.
M: Quite a stubborn person, you. I am certainly not being unreasonable by taking my thermometer and examining the spiritual temperature of Catholics who use Mary as a doormat to get to Jesus. The temperature reading says they are running a high fever as it regards that issue, being just as wrong as what we find in the catechism (#2677), which would have us believe that we must entrust "all our cares and petitions to HER"; a bold and bombastic contradiction to 1 Peter 5:7: "Casting ALL your care on Him, for He careth for you."
Part II
ReplyDeleteS: Jesus IS the Door to Heaven, NO ONE enters Heaven except THROUGH HIM!
M: "VATICAN CITY, SEP 9, 1998 (VIS) - At today's Wednesday general audience in St. Peter's Square, the Pope spoke on the theme of The Spirit of God and the 'Seeds of Truth' in non-Christian Religions. The 'seeds of truth', said John Paul II, are 'the effect of the Spirit of truth operating outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body', the wind 'which blows where it wills'. The Holy Father explained that in all authentic religious experiences, the most characteristic manifestation is prayer. ... Every true prayer is inspired by the Holy Spirit, Who is mysteriously present in the heart of every person. Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior."
Needless to say, your attempts at insisting that Christ is the ONLY way into paradise---- but who, according to the RCC will allow many in who could not care less about His holy person, makes your argument quite disingenuous. After all is said and done, it doesn't make Him a door at all, but a CRAWLSPACE, where Muslims---(experts at being on their knees 3 times a day), get to slip past Him "by following their own religious tradition" which rejects Jesus Christ no less than 15 times in the Koran!
We also notice the ridiculous statement that the Holy Spirit is "mysteriously present" in everyone (an utterly unbiblical premise), and the word "mysterious" always and forever being summoned into service to dodge all of the RCC's "mystifying theocracy" without any explanation or scriptural proof. No wonder God calls Rome, "MYSTERY Babylon" in the book of Revelation!
S: It seems to me, just expressing my personal opinion here, that you cannot accept that a Catholic believes that Jesus REALLY IS A DOOR. Remember, THAT is the matter we're discussing in this article which you are attempting to divert to a discussion on Mary. THE POINTis that Jesus REALLY IS A DOOR just as the Eucharist REALLY IS HIS BODY AND BLOOD!You seem to be avoiding that point.
M: Oh come now. Jesus is not "really" a door in the same sense as your belief that the Eucharist "really is" His body and blood. The former is obviously figurative, the latter, literal.
Scott: Let's not try to use "typical" or "stereotypical" comments, if we can avoid them. Such are polemical and rarely fruitful.
ReplyDeleteMonty: If the "typical" refutation of Catholic doctrine is squarely based on the sacred Text, I am not ashamed to use it, and that you choose to label it "stereotypical" will not diminish the force of its impact.
S: You seem rather offended by "to Jesus through Mary" - which is wholly another topic and I will address that in a separate blog article.
M: I hardly think that since the majority of Catholics think it necessary to go THROUGH Mary to get TO Jesus, is somehow "another" topic. For you perhaps it becomes "another" issue, but that's because it so flagrantly violates the Scriptures--and you are caught between a rock and hard place by trying to conform the Bible with your out-of-control RC piety. I would certainly hate to be in your position.
S: You're putting down your "immaculate foot" over a non-issue to this discussion.
M: Quite a stubborn person, you. I am certainly not being unreasonable by taking my thermometer and examining the spiritual temperature of Catholics who use Mary as a doormat to get to Jesus. The temperature reading says they are running a high fever as it regards that issue, being just as wrong there---as when we look in the catechism (#2677), which would have us believe that we must entrust "all our cares and petitions to HER"; a bold and ludicrous contradiction to 1 Peter 5:7: "Casting ALL your care on Him, for He careth for you."
I am responding in another article.
ReplyDelete