Qui Locutus - Formerly The CathApol Blog - a Catholic Apologetics Blog Defending the Faith and keeping Catholics Catholic! Scott Windsor, MEd. - aka: CathApol
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This is a continuing discussion from http://cathapol.blogspot.com/2010/01/pope-working-toward-unity-with-eo.html >> sw: "Um, t...
Are you *currently* being sent into Hell forever ... automatically excommunicated (outside) of God’s Catholic Church ?
ReplyDeleteAnswer: Yes you are ... you can reverse it ... please continue.
Council of Florence, Session 8, 22 Nov 1439 -- infallible Source of Dogma >
"Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the Catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally."
You must believe the Catholic Dogma to be in the Church ... Dogma you have *never* seen.
Site > Immaculata-one.com ... infallible Dogma throughout.
The Catholic Faith *is not* Bible interpretation ... it is the Catholic infallible Sources of Dogma. The Catholic Church didn’t even define the Bible’s New Testament Canon until 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage.
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Can a group which enforces the opposite, the opposite, and the opposite of the Catholic unchangeable Dogma be the Catholic Church?
No, it cannot possibly be the Catholic Church ... and promotion of the opposite of the Catholic Dogma is exactly what the vatican-2 heretic cult does ... and has been doing since it’s founding on 8 December 1965 at the Vatican.
The vatican-2 heresy does not have the Office of the Papacy ... only the Catholic Church has the Papacy.
The Dogma cannot “change” or be “reversed” ... God does not “change”.
The founding documents of the vatican-2 heretic cult … the “vatican-2 council” documents … have well over 200 heresies *against* prior defined unchangeable Dogma. Every (apparent) bishop at the “council” approved the mountain of heresy, which caused their automatic excommunication, see Section 13.2 of the below site.
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Section 12 > Anti-Christ vatican-2 heresies (50 listed) ... followed by many Catholic corrections.
Sections 13 and 13.1 > Photographic *proof* of heresy at the Vatican.
Because of … the Catholic Dogma on automatic excommunication for heresy or for physical participation in a heretic cult (such as the v-2 cult) …
… we were all placed, body and soul, *outside* of Christianity (the Catholic Church) on 8 December 1965 … the close date of the “council”.
Section 13.2 > Catholic Dogma on automatic excommunication for heresy or participating in a heretic cult such as ... vatican-2, lutheran, methodist, evangelical, etc.
Section 107 > St. Athanasius (died 373 A.D.) ... “Even if the Church were reduced to a handful ...” - - during the “arian” heresy ... we are there again, but worse.
Section 13.3 > Matt 16:18, Gates of Hell scripture ... is *not* about the Office of the Papacy ... four Dogmatic Councils defined it ... that heresy will not cause the Dogma to disappear.
Section 13.4 > The vatican-2 heretic cult does not have the Office of the Papacy only the Catholic Church has the Papacy.
Section 13.6 > The Catholic Dogma on Jurisdiction and Automatic Excommunication for heresy define that ... God has allowed Catholic Jurisdiction ... for Mass and Confession to disappear from the world. There is no such thing as Catholic Mass outside of the Catholic Church.
Non-Catholic heresies such as “vatican-2”, “sspx”, “sspv”, “cmri”, etc. ... do not have Catholic Mass.
Section 19.1 > Dogma on Abjuration for *re-entering* Christianity (the Catholic Church) … after being automatically excommunicated. A Formal Abjuration is provided here also.
Section 10.2 > Returning to a state of grace, in places and times when Confession is not available, like now.
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Second Council of Constantinople, 553 A.D. -- infallible Source of Dogma >
"The heretic, even though he has not been condemned formally by any individual, in reality brings anathema on himself, having cut himself off from the way of truth by his heresy."
Blessed John Eudes, died 1680 >
“The greatest evil existing today is heresy, an infernal rage which hurls countless souls into eternal damnation.”
Everything you must know, believe, and do to get to Heaven is on > > Immaculata-one.com.
Victoria
Our Lady of Conquest
Pray for us
VDP: Are you *currently* being sent into Hell forever ... automatically excommunicated (outside) of God’s Catholic Church ?
ReplyDeleteAnswer: Yes you are ... you can reverse it ... please continue.
CM5:
Who made you judge? How do you know who is going to heaven or hell? Last time I heard that was Jesus Christ’s job.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” (Matt 25:31,32 NAB)
VDP: Council of Florence, Session 8, 22 Nov 1439 -- infallible Source of Dogma >
"Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the Catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally."
CM5:
The main purpose of the *ecumenical* council of Florence was the attempt at reunification of the Western Church (Catholic) with the Eastern Church (Orthodox). And, they came pretty close to accomplishing it, but as we know ultimately did not succeed.
Session 8 is “The Bull of Union with the Armenians.” So, it is obvious to the objective reader that the Catholic Church accepted, at the very least, the Armenians as part of *the* Church. So, your version of the quote is a little misleading.
“Whoever wills to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he holds the catholic faith. Unless a person keeps this faith whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish eternally. The catholic faith is this,…” http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/florence.htm
The statement says “the catholic faith” with a small “c” (in context) for a purpose. This statement is inclusive of the Orthodox and Armenian churches of which agreements had been made by their representatives. (The reunification ultimately did not happen because the Orthodox failed to have a council, which their representatives at Florence said was necessary, to ratify the agreement with Rome). But, it also begins in the next sentence to describe just what the catholic (small c) faith is, statements of faith agreed upon by the Catholic and the Armenian Churches (thus the small c).
VDP: You must believe the Catholic Dogma to be in the Church ... Dogma you have *never* seen.
CM5:
Who has *never* seen Catholic dogma? Scott? Me? Anybody that doesn’t agree with your interpretation of Catholic dogma?
I know that I believe the dogma of the Catholic Church, and I am pretty confident that Scott, the originator of this blog and the post you added a comment to, and the other men who are contributors to this blog believe the dogma of the Catholic Church.
VDP: Site > Immaculata-one.com ... infallible Dogma throughout.
CM5:
The site you adhere to says: “The Catholic Dogma on Automatic Excommunication for heresy ... Defines that the Catholic Church has had no physical properties or personnel
hierarchy (no Priests or Bishops) since 8 December 1965.”
That quote alone tells me that that group or person is in schism with the Catholic Church and therefore is not only heretical but protesting against the Church.
Cont.
VDP: The Catholic Faith *is not* Bible interpretation ... it is the Catholic infallible Sources of Dogma. The Catholic Church didn’t even define the Bible’s New Testament Canon until 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage.
ReplyDeleteCM5:
I would say that the Catholic Faith is not “just” Bible interpretation. If one examines the Mass, one sees that the vast majority of what is said by the priest *is in* (a part of) Scripture—they are direct quotes. Also, we have two readings, a Psalm, and a Gospel passage read at each and every Sunday Mass. While the Catholic Faith does not take Scripture as her final authority as most Protestants claim to do, the Scripture is a huge part of the Tradition that is the Catholic Faith.
VDP: Can a group which enforces the opposite, the opposite, and the opposite of the Catholic unchangeable Dogma be the Catholic Church?
No, it cannot possibly be the Catholic Church ... and promotion of the opposite of the Catholic Dogma is exactly what the vatican-2 heretic cult does ... and has been doing since it’s founding on 8 December 1965 at the Vatican.
CM5:
I, and I think many Catholics would agree with me, that someone who leaves the Catholic Church because they claim to know better than her is in opposition to the Catholic Church and her “unchangeable dogma”.
Vatican Council II is just as valid as Florence. While Vatican Council II was unique in that it was not called to fight a heresy or define a dogma, it was just as legitimate as any other Council of the Church. It was called by the Pope, it had representatives from every part of the Church around the world, and it was guided by the Holy Spirit.
Vatican Council II did not change dogma nor define any new dogma. Vatican II was an attempt by the (legitimate) pope to express the “unchangeable” dogma of the Church in a way that 20th century (and beyond) Christians could understand. It also expresses in its documents ways to relate to and *evangelize* the rest of the world. This does not include condemnation and judgment but living the Gospel as an example and bringing the world to Christ in love. Your view and interpretation of the Council are skewed by this extreme, radical, and anti-Catholic-biased website.
VDP: The vatican-2 heresy does not have the Office of the Papacy ... only the Catholic Church has the Papacy.
CM5:
Since Vatican Council II was not heretical, it is not in opposition of the Church. The Council was called by the legitimate pope, Pope John XXIII. The papacy is just as legitimate now as it was when Peter went to Rome.
VDP: The Dogma cannot “change” or be “reversed” ... God does not “change”.
CM5:
Vatican Council II did not “change” or “reverse” dogma, nor did it change God.
VDP: The founding documents of the vatican-2 heretic cult … the “vatican-2 council” documents … have well over 200 heresies *against* prior defined unchangeable Dogma. Every (apparent) bishop at the “council” approved the mountain of heresy, which caused their automatic excommunication, see Section 13.2 of the below site.
CM5:
Who gave that site or you the authority to judge the Catholic Church? You sound (your site) just like the Protestants of the last 500 years, who believe they know better than the Church that Jesus founded, breathed His Spirit into, and promised that the “gates of hell would not prevail” against. So, you/your group believes they know better than the Church that has been around up to 1965, is that what you believe? How does that *not* make you Protestant? (I’m chuckling as I type because your claim that you’re more Catholic than the Catholic Church is absurd on its face and *exactly* what Luther claimed 500 years ago.)
Cont.
VDP: Section 12 > Anti-Christ vatican-2 heresies (50 listed) ... followed by many Catholic corrections.
ReplyDeleteSections 13 and 13.1 > Photographic *proof* of heresy at the Vatican.
CM5:
It is beyond my comprehension as to why anyone would condemn the pope (not a “non-catholic heretic” as your site loves to call him over and over) for trying to work with world leaders for the physical, mental, and spiritual well-being of all people on earth. That’s kind of His job. Jesus told His Apostles to “Therefore go and make disciples of **all nations**…” The best way to do that is not to condemn but live the Gospel as a witness to them. The pope is not a heretic but Christ on earth.
I won’t be going point by point over that ridiculous site, that’s not neither my job nor was it the point of the post to which you attached your “comment.” I admire your passion, but I believe, strongly, deeply, and with all Christian charity, that you and your site are very wrong. I will follow the Church Christ founded nearly 20 centuries ago and promised to be with and protect, not a fly by night cult that has been around about ½ a century (if that) who think they are more catholic than the Catholic Church. Further schism of the Catholic Church is certainly not the wish of Jesus Christ for His Church. I am certain that it breaks His heart that Christians (claiming to be Catholic or not) attack His Church and attack His chosen vicar.
The rest of VDP’s post is above.
In Christ’s charity,
Cathmom5
“But the mind recoils from recording what troubles, attacks and persecutions we have suffered in the course of this divine undertaking until now, not indeed from Turks or Saracens but from those who call themselves Christians.” (Council of Florence, Session 7)
“Let us pray and beseech that, as the Greeks and the Armenians have been made one with the Roman church, so also may other nations be, especially those signed with the seal of Christ, and that finally the whole Christian people, after all hatreds and wars have been extinguished, may rest and rejoice together in mutual peace and brotherly love.” (Council of Florence, Session 8)
Thanks cathmom5, but I think Vicki is more of a "drive-by" than one actually interested in discussing/debating with us. She chose a "meme" to post an attack on the Catholic Church. Yes, she is a sede vacantist, one who believes none of the popes after Pope Pius XII were valid popes - and they cry heresy and scandal, etc. - but it is really they who are outside the Church and truly need to examine themselves and the "cause" for which they "fight."
ReplyDeleteAnyway, while Vicki may not re-engage, your answers provide answers to others who may be fooled by the strong words of the likes of "Vicki DePalma."
AMDG,
Scott<<<
I know, we'll probably never hear from her again, but it struck a nerve and I felt I needed to answer the lies. Sede vacantism *is* protestantism. That aside, VDP just wanted to use the blog to push her own agenda.
ReplyDeleteI am at a critical point in my life, as you know (although I have more going on--again--which I will talk about to you in private) and so-called Christians attempted to tear the Church apart even further, really offends me. I don't understand how "Christians" can be so hateful. That certainly was not Christ's wish for us.
I hope I did okay on this one.
+JMJ+
I know, we'll probably never hear from her again, but it struck a nerve and I felt I needed to answer the lies
ReplyDeleteAnd I am glad you did. Well done, Sister.
AMDG,
Scott<<<