Answering a non-Catholic Objection

Non-Catholic “Roger” states:

You have never proven through Scripture that the RCC has anything to do with the Church that Jesus started. All that you have given is one assumption based upon other assumptions - that lead you to a false conclusion.

I reply:

Other than the fact that the Catholic Church has believed in the True Presence of Christ throughout the centuries without break to today. And we have a written record of such a belief from the first generation beyond the apostles(Ignatius of Antioch, 107 AD). So, at least, the belief in the True Presence has been in existence in the same church for nearly 2000 years. Can your belief in a symbolic presence only (if that is what you truly believe) be proven the same way?

But beyond that. To prove through Scripture that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus started, all one needs to do is look at the Nicean Creed..."I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". The Church Christ founded is apostolic. It has its roots in the teachings of the apostles for Jesus said to His apostles "He who receives you receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." (Matt 10:1,40). Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

But first let's start with Matt 28:18-20:

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Three things to look at here in these verses. First, Jesus commands to make disciples of ALL nations. Jesus knew that this task was never going to be done by these 12 apostles alone. Others had to take their place once they died. Second, Jesus says that He will be with THEM to the very end of the age. How is that possible since the apostles all died before the end of the first century? That because Jesus was speaking to the twelve as the representatives of His Church. Third, Jesus sends them off with what kind of authority? With the authority of Jesus Himself. This is also confirmed in the Gospel of John, chapter 20, verse 21 which says "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
The apostles have divinely appointed authority. And this authority is transferred to others as successors through the laying on of hands. The first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority (Acts 1:15-16). The authority of Judas' office (his 'bishopric') is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

The apostles authority was to be given to successors since Jesus' command of teaching (with authority) to all nations was a command unfeasible for those twelve alone. They had to share this authority to others to fulfill Jesus' command. They gave this authority to others through the laying on of hands (Acts 6:6, 1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:1-6). And this is to go on through multiple generations as shown in 2 Tim 2:2. This verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors. It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

^“22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. ²³ With them they sent the following letter:

The apostles and elders, your brothers, to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:Greetings.
²⁴ We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. ²⁵ So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— ²⁶ men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. ²⁷ Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.   (Acts 15:22-27)

Preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles. Who sent you Roger? My bishop was sent by a previous bishop who was sent by a previous one all the way back in history to one of the twelve apostles themselves. Can you claim the same of your teachers of the Word?

God Bless

Nathan

Pope Francis, Jesus Not Found Outside the Church

Pope Francis said that people cannot be fully united to Jesus outside of the Church during a Mass to commemorate Saint George, the saint he is named after.

“You cannot find Jesus outside the Church,” he said April 23 in the Apostolic Palace’s Pauline Chapel.

“It is the Mother Church who gives us Jesus, who gives us the identity that is not only a seal, it is a belonging,” he declared in his homily.

The pontiff spoke about Christian identity as well as persecution, making it the sixth time in two weeks he has mentioned those who suffer for the faith.

Speaking about the Gospel reading for today from Saint John, Pope Francis underscored that “the missionary expansion of the Church began precisely at a time of persecution.”

“They had this apostolic fervor within them, and that is how the faith spread!” he exclaimed.

It was through the Holy Spirit’s initiative that the Gospel was proclaimed to the Gentiles, the Pope noted, and the Spirit “pushes more and more in this direction of opening the proclamation of the Gospel to all.”

The pontiff also repeated a line from his April 17 homily in St. Martha’s residence, when he emphasized that being a Christian is not like having “an identity card.”

“Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these (the apostles) belonged to the Church, the Mother Church, because finding Jesus outside the Church is impossible,” he said.

“The great Paul VI said it is an absurd dichotomy to want to live with Jesus but without the Church, following Jesus out of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church,” he added.

Pope Francis said that “if we are not sheep of Jesus, faith does not come” and that it is “a rosewater faith and a faith without substance.”

The Pope also commented on Barnabas, who was sent to Antioch and was glad to see that the grace of God had encouraged people there to remain true disciples.

“Let us think of the consolations that Barnabas had, which is the sweet and comforting joy of evangelizing,” he preached.

“Let us ask the Lord for this frankness, this apostolic fervor that impels us to move forward, as brothers, all of us forward,” he remarked.

After the Mass in the papal chapel, the Swiss Guard band offered a brief musical performance in the Courtyard of Saint Damaso for the Pope’s name day.

Read more: http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7508

Remember - ALL FRIDAYS

Well, Lent is over (for the Latin Church, it's still going on for the Eastern Orthodox) so many/most Catholics have likely gone back to eating meat on Fridays - AND - are not offering up any other "equivalent" penance in its place!  What's this?  We STILL need to be giving up meat on Fridays?  Well, YES - sort of.  Canon Law in Canon 1250 decrees that Fridays throughout the year are days of penance, not just during Lent!  The only difference is currently outside of Lent the penance does not have to be meat - but it HAS to be something AND according to one's local ecclesial authority, and that is according to Canon 1252.  The bishops have come to realize how this has confused many Catholics and that those misinformed Catholics who do NOTHING on Fridays throughout the year are actually in direct violation of Canon Law!  So, it is rumored that the bishops are considering going back to "the way it was" and stick with "Meatless Fridays" throughout the year (except on solemnities if one falls on a Friday).

Now, again, if you're NOT going to abstain from meat on Fridays, you NEED to be doing SOMETHING and what you choose should be an equivalent sacrifice/penance on your part.  So, with that in mind - why not stick to abstaining from meat?!  Meatless Fridays USED to be synonymous with Catholicism!  It USED to be so popular that many restaurants offered "Fish Fry Fridays" so they would not lose the Catholic business on Fridays.   I urge you to join me in giving up meat on ALL FRIDAYS THROUGHOUT THE YEAR.

Code of Canon Law 1250-1252 on the Vatican Website

A further reminder as to WHY we do this...  it is because EVERY Friday is like a "little Good Friday" and EVERY Sunday is like a "little Easter Sunday."  EVERY Sunday we celebrate the Resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!  You can't have Easter without Good Friday!  When we give up meat on Fridays then at every meal where we would have or may have had meat, and/or while we are out with our non-Catholic friends and they are eating meat - we call to mind the REASON we're not partaking in meat on Fridays is to call our attention to the Cross of Christ.  In some small way this little sacrifice unites us to His Ultimate Sacrifice of the Cross.  With that in mind, we joyfully offer up our penance on Fridays - ALL Fridays throughout the year.

Happy 90th Birthday Mother Angelica!

I sure miss seeing her every week!

Apostolic Succession and Infallibility

sw: Since Ron is insistent upon distracting from sola v. solo scriptura, and I cannot add a new topic to the GB Blog, I am responding here under the heading of Ron’s subject matter which is apostolic succession coupled with infallibility.

199 Ron said,  April 15, 2013 at 10:31 pm

sw: As Jesus was sent, so also He sent His Apostles – which means that they too were to continue to “send out” others, just as they had been sent by Jesus. … And where does Scripture tell you that the apostolic office (bishop) would cease with the death of the last Apostle?

Scott,

Again, please provide the syllogism. Don’t just give me fragmented premises and don’t argue fallaciously from silence as you have. I want to know how you get from “send out others” to an infallible magisterium? Given that there is no biblical precedent for a perpetual apostolate, the burden of proof for your argument from silence falls squarely upon you to show that Scripture teaches that there would be such an office. I’m sorry but incredible claims require credible proofs. So again, please provide syllogisms for these incredible claims of yours.

sw: Well, I believe I have done this already, but will do so again especially since I am posting this to my blog, where many may not have read my previous replies.  I reject the allegation that I have argued from silence, if that were true the thread this came from would not be one of the most prolific on Green Baggins.  Granted, it is not the most prolific and I was not part of the earlier discussions, but with over 200 replies it is one of the most in recent weeks/months.  I joined in at comment #77.  A syllogism, for those who do not know, is “a deductive scheme of a formal argument consisting of a major and a minor premise and a conclusion” (Merriam-Webster) so I will construct my response in precisely that format.

sw: Formal argument:  As the Father sent Jesus, He sent out the Apostles - thus as they were sent out, they too send others out - or else they were not doing as Jesus commanded them to do.  Jesus enabled the Apostles with the charism of infallibility and this charism is passed down to their successors.

sw: Major premise:  Jesus established the bishoprick (called this in Acts 1:20 KJV/DRB), which is the “office” held by the Apostles.  Clearly that office was to have a successor, as we see in Acts 1:20, and clearly history demonstrates that this “office” is demonstrated throughout the history of the Church all the way to the current day.  The word for bishop or “overseer” is used many times throughout the New Testament.  God’s Word lays the solid foundation of the office of the bishop.  That this office was meant to be passed down is also clear, not only from Acts 1:20, but also where Jesus said, “As the Father has sent me, I also send you” (John 20:21).  Jesus sent them out as Apostles, in fact that is what the word “apostle” means, “to send” (Merriam-Webster especially see etymology).  Now, if they were “sent” the same way Jesus was “sent,” then they too must “send” others just as they were “sent.”  To fail to send others the same way they were sent would have been to fail at the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20).  If they failed here, then Jesus failed to build His Church, as He promised (Matthew 16:18).  This brings us to the next section.

sw: Minor premise:  The Apostles were enabled with the charism of infallibility.  We see this explicitly expressed in Matthew 16:19 to St. Peter, alone; and to the Apostles as a group in Matthew 18:18.

Matthew 16:19 - And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Matthew 18:18 - Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Note, in Matthew 16:19, Jesus is speaking directly to, and only to, St. Peter.  In Matthew 18:18 Jesus isn’t speaking to any one individual, but to the whole group of them assembled there.  Of equal note, in 18:18 the Apostles are the only ones there.  This is not a charism given to everyone in the Church, but only to our first bishops, the Apostles.  How is this infallibility, you might ask?  Simply stated, if something is bound or loosed in heaven, then it must be infallibly bound for no error could possibly be bound or loosed in heaven.  Some argue (as Turretinfan does in comment 211) that this charism only applies to the forgiveness of sins - but there is no such limitation in these passages!  If fact, the passages explicitly deny any limitation with the use of the word “whatsoever.”  They don’t say “whatsoever sins you shall bind/loose...” but simply “whatsoever you shall bind/loose...”  To limit these passages to the forgiveness (or retention) of sins is to import a word to the text which is not there.  Besides, this authority to forgive or retain sins is also explicitly granted to the Apostles in John 20:23.  To say that Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 are limited to the forgiveness of sins is pure eisegesis.

sw: Conclusion:  Our first bishops, the Apostles, were sent out exactly as Jesus commanded them - and just as the Son was sent, so too they were sent.  Part of Jesus’ commission of being sent out was to send others (the Apostles) out.  Likewise part of the Apostles commission is to send out others to lead, just as they lead.  Jesus gave to the Apostles the charism of infallibility and likewise the Apostles give to those whom they send out this same charism.  Again, to do anything less would be a failure of their apostleship.  I have documented several valid apostolic successions which begin with an Apostle and continue to this day.

sw: This essentially answers all of Ron’s points from his posting, but I will go through the entire post...

sw:  Yet again, no where does Scripture say that Scripture alone is what the Church is built upon. Scripture, in fact, says the Church is built upon St. Peter (Matthew 16:18-19) and upon The Twelve Apostles (Rev. 21:14), but never says the Church is built upon a book which did not even exist as such for some 400 years, certainly not even close to the form/format we call “The Bible” today.

You want to assume something for “Peter” and the “Twelve” that is neither Peter nor the Twelve. Accordingly, your own proof-texts betray you. In other words, you appeal to Peter and the Twelve but you want to make Peter and the Twelve out to be something other than Peter and the Twelve, like a perpetual line of Roman Catholic pontiffs.

You have a wild card you haven’t thrown and we all know what it is. It’s the unproven assumption your entire system is built upon, which has no redemptive-historical precedence. Now of course, we know that Scripture is authoritative. Yet if the apostles are no longer with us, then all we have is Scripture. Scripture is the de facto position we might say. The “alone” part comes because no syllogism from Scripture can be provided that would necessitate another ultimate authority to stand alongside Scripture.

sw: The syllogism I provided above (and have provided previously, but not in such a formal format) demonstrates that I am assuming nothing, but accepting and believing God’s Word.  I have presented the foundation of Apostolic succession and then provided a link to several actual and valid successions from several of the Apostles.  There is no “unproven assumption” here, and no hidden “wild card” - but plain and simple facts for those who have eyes to see.  So, that men have been given infallible authority - Scripture itself testifies to “another ultimate authority to stand alongside Scripture.

sw: Actually, Jesus – several times – broke with “what was written” to demonstrate their fallacy of adhering so firmly to “The Law” saying, “you say ‘it is written, but I say…’” Do you need me to list out those examples to you?

I think your exegesis is flawed because it leads you to pit the law against Jesus. Jesus’ issue was with any perversion of the law. Or are you saying that Jesus “broke with” the true meaning of his own law? If not, then your point is a non-issue.

sw: You are most certainly entitled to think as you wish, but the fact is that Jesus came to fulfill the Law and six times He used this precise format in Matthew 5:

Matthew 5:21-22 - You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment.  But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.  But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:31-32 - And it hath been said, Whoseoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce.  But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Matthew 5:33-34 - Again you have heard that it was said to them of old, Thou shalt not forswear thyself: but thou shalt perform thy oaths to the Lord.  But I say to you not to swear at all, neither by heaven, for it is the throne of God.

Matthew 5:38-39 - You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.  But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other.

Matthew 5:43:44 - You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy.  But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.

sw: So Ron, I have said nothing that wasn’t said already by Jesus Christ, Himself.

sw: It is, yet another, pure anachronism to attempt to apply sola scriptura to Adam and Eve!

In other words, it’s off limits for me to appeal to OT precedent in order to establish burden of proof. Yet precedence determines burden of proof. Consequently, I’m not permitted to reason according to the only philosophical basis upon which an argument from silence may be deemed fallacious.

Scott, I will hand you this. You went for the jugular like a good Roman Catholic. You realize that your argument is based upon sola-silence. So, rather than try to overcome the objection to your argument from silence, namely the lack of biblical precedence for your position, you made the most unusual appeal to “anachronism.” Very innovative but no cigar.

sw: Actually, Ron, the reason it is anachronism is quite simple, and I don’t think it’s innovative, but if you wish to give me that, sobeit.  The reason it is an anachronism is because there was no Scripture for Adam and Eve, so how could we apply a concept of sola scriptura to them?

AMDG,
Scott<<<

Eternal Security

From what I understand of the belief of eternal security is that once one accepts Jesus Christ into their hearts and pray the ‘sinners’ prayer then there is no sin, no evil this individual can do so as to keep them from reaching heaven.  They only need to believe in Jesus (John 3:16) and they’ll be ‘saved’.  They have absolute assurance of salvation.  And since works do not gain our salvation, our works cannot contribute to our losing our salvation.  We are now “hid” with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3).  There is “no condemnation” for those in Christ (Romans 8:1-2).

In fact some also bring up John 10:27 as proof that they can never lose their salvation since Jesus proclaims that “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”  And yet nowhere do we find that one cannot willingly jump out of His hands through ones own choosing.

In fact, one Protestant writes:

“However, it is not merely from the Levitical laws that we were discharged, but also from the moral ones.  God only has one law.  Does that mean we can sin freely?  No, for God hates sin, and if we love God, we will live according to His commandments.  However, it does mean that no sin will be held against us once we receive Christ, for upon receiving Christ we are discharged from the very law against which our sins would have been reckoned.”

Let’s look at the question of absolute assurance.  Is there such a teaching in Scripture?  NO, there isn’t.  Romans 8:1-2 does not say absolute assurance.

Rom 8:1-2  “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.”

And Romans 6:15-16 says that sin leads to death.  Now, this verse is found in the SAME letter as the verse supposedly showing absolute assurance.  Decidedly, Paul does not agree with this.  We are not discharged from the moral law because there are consequences to sinning!! 

For example, what happens if a believer in Jesus cannot forgive the sins of another?  Jesus Himself says that: “…if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” (Mat 6:14-15)

God is infinite in His resources, He spares nothing to convince us to come to Him and remain BUT because of our free will, we are always free to refuse God's infinite help and support and in this way even lose our own salvation and therefore the Protestant doctrine of Eternal Security is unequivocally false.

 

God Bless

Nathan

Prayer for Boston Marathon Victims

4/15/2013 - Boston Marathon rocked by two explosions.

Two bombs went off, more devices reportedly found. Two dead, dozens injured. Let us pray for comfort in this time of suffering and loss.

Let us not rush to judgment and perhaps cast blame on the wrong parties, and for now pray for comfort and peace for those individuals directly affected. Lord have mercy.

More later, sent this from my Windows Phone.

OK, home now...  some updates.

They are now reporting 3 dead, about 140 injured, some critically - including several with loss of limbs.

Marathon Witness: Explosions 'Like a War Zone': ABCNEWS.COM - Rachel Sibley says chaos resulted from explosions at the annual Boston marathon.

On my drive home I heard an interview with someone who saw a child, untouched by the physical explosion, but just standing there in complete shock.  Not all the victims were physically hurt.

Continued prayers for ALL those affected by this act of terrorism.

Update, 4/16/2013 - No additional explosives found or detonated.

The only devices found were the two which went off, there are no other bombs in the area.  No word on suspect(s) and no organization has taken credit.

Suspicious bag at the location of the second bomb blast...

Update, 4/17/2013

Death toll has not climbed, still at 3.  170 people injured.  Over a dozen still in critical condition.  Several conflicting reports throughout the day of arrests made, but ultimately authorities said no one has been arrested yet.

Update, 4/18/2013

I pulled the pictures I posted earlier as the FBI is saying the two individuals pictured below are the suspects and that "Suspect #2" was seen dropping his backpack at the location of the second explosion just moments before it blew up.

Suspect #2                                     Suspect #1

Update, 4/19/2013

Brothers, Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev have been named as Suspect #1 and #2 respectively.  Last night they attempted to rob a convenience store and in their flight they killed an MIT Police officer.  A bit later Tamerlan was killed in an exchange of gunfire with the police - it has also been reported that some sort of explosive vest also went off and contributed to his death.  Dzhokhar (friends pronounced it Jokhar) is still on the loose, but at the time of this writing, is cornered in a home in Watertown, MA which is surrounded by police and FBI.

As of this evening it is reported that Dzhokhar is alive and has been arrested.  

Lord have mercy.  Let the people of the Boston area get some rest tonight.

Amen.